But I won't do that. Oddly enough, my being so wrong may helped make it one of the most popular posts I've ever done! Seriously. It got more page views in a day than 95% of my posts do.
Besides, I'm going to try to explain/apologize for it, so you need to read it if you haven't already done so. You can find it here. And be sure to read all the comments ripping me apart for it too. That's the fun part.
My friend Grange was the most prolific, giving an item-by-item destruction of my position.
What can I say? I can't be right if everyone tells me I'm wrong, can I? So yeah, the old guy who was too busy eating his food got what he deserved. I apologize not only to my readers but to dealers everywhere who were tarred with my unfair title. Apparently, there was not an irresponsible dealer to be found.
In my defense. I don't think I made it clear enough how the dealer was, to my mind, denying info to the player. I probably didn't use enough words. I'm used to using more, that's for sure.
I won't defend my position again, I will just try to explain it a little better. When the card flipped over, and the dealer grabbed it as soon as he could, he made no effort to show anyone at the table the card, which I believe is standard practice. He stuck that card on top of the deck as fast as he could. Other people could have missed it as well, I just know for sure that most of us saw it and a few commented on it.
Now, he didn't have to say, "Hey (Seat 2), the Ace of spades is exposed," but he could have (should have?) said, loud enough for the old guy to hear it, "Exposed card," and if the guy didn't want to turn around to see, then for sure, tough on him. But he seemed to want to keep it a secret.
My feeling at the time, based on body language, the look he gave me, even the way he held the deck before he put the card down as the burn card, was that he was making every effort possible to keep the guy from seeing exposed card. Also, there was his comment, when someone asked about it, "Let it go." I took that to mean in no uncertain circumstances was anyone to say anything about the exposed card.
It just felt to me that he was going out of his way to punish the guy. I didn't make that clear, and I apologize for that, and even if I'm right (and it's just a feeling), I certainly understand the position you all have taken..."you snooze, you lose." I did mention that myself in the original post.
Anyway, that's it. I guess I'm saying that the previous post is void. But I hope you enjoyed it and my humiliation anyway.
EDITED TO ADD....STOP THE PRESSES!!! Apparently I was premature in throwing in the towel. Almost immediately after posting this and tweeting out the link, I heard (via Twitter) from two damn good sources that I was right in the first place.
First, Sean McCormack, The Director of Poker Operations at the Aria, tweeted back to me, "As an industry person that runs a room I will say-You were 100% correct in your OP. 'You snooze you lose' is invalid."
Then Chad Harberts, long time poker dealer, floor person, and blogger, tweeted this to me: ."you are not wrong in any way. When I deal an exposed card I announce the card at the table and put it face up on deck." I will point out though that the dealer did have the card face up on the deck, but based on positioning, I don't think the player had a reasonable chance to see it.
Thanks to both for chiming in. I guess I just gave in too easily. But I'm not going to say much more.....clearly this is open to interpretation and was also based on my open read on what the dealer was trying to do.
Final note: The pic below is presented entirely for my own amusement. It is such an inside joke that I am the only who gets it. But I need to make myself laugh, so there you are.
FWIW, it's entirely possible that the player was at fault for ignoring the action AND that the dealer was being a dick. Poker does tend to attract a decent number of unpleasant folks ...
ReplyDeleteHi Rob take it easy on yourself. Yeah you were wrong but nobody bats 1000. I have had dealers flip up an A and not tell me. They do show it as a burn card. You know I have had players next to me not protect their hand and I had to tell them. Then they tell me off for looking. Of course if you are not paying attention to what is going on you are giving up huge negative EV. I guess that why people play the game you never know who or what you are up against.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Ed....please see the last few paragraphs of the post above...seems I have some heavy duty assurance that I might have been right in the first place.
DeleteI thought you were too hard core in the last post. And ... what Grange said up above. The player was messing up the game by not paying any attention and the dealer appeared to be a dick about it. Not worth the usual Rob 10,000 words in my book, but ... lol.
ReplyDeleteHa! I know have some heavy duty validation that I was right all along. See the revised version of the post above (at the end). I withdrawal my withdrawal!
DeleteLong ago, I worked for tips. I bet the old dude was cheap and rarely tipped.
ReplyDeleteHmm.....trying to remember, not sure if I remember him winning a pot. And if I did, I might not remember if he tipped. But definitely a possibility.
DeleteRob, I've read both posts you wrote on this. I didn't get thru all the comments so maybe someone already made this point: what if the guy eating wasn't eating but looking at his phone and listening to music thru earbuds while the dealer flipped the ace, put it on top of the deck, and then burned it, right before the guy looked up? If the guy had been slowing the game down multiple times already...from them on, you snooze you lose!
ReplyDeleteThanks, actually I (briefly) mentioned the possibility of being distracted for the phone or other reasons.
DeleteBottom line....it's on the player to be paying attention, but this dealer didn't do enough to make the exposed card known (at least,l that's my position at this particular moment).
In the room where I regularly play the dealer would have picked up the card and announced "Ace of * will be the burn card" and placed it on top of the deck face up. I assume that is the policy in most rooms I have played in since I have never noticed that it wasn't. The dealer should have announced. On the other hand players who hold up the game drive me nuts. He should have been paying attention. They were both wrong.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Ag....I think one thing I didn't make clear enough was that at this table, pretty much everyone at one point or another everyone was distracted by having a meal....it was almost as if people were there to eat and a card game broke out. Typical for this room at this hour. So he wasn't the only one. I suppose he might have been the worst, which I chalk up to his age.
DeleteThe dealer did NOT verbally announce the exposed card and he didn't take it and "show" it side to side to the table. It seemed to me that he was trying to keep it a secret.
Just as a side note. Was playing a casino in Connecticut earlier this year during a large promotion. Had an older gentleman playing who would actually dose off. After a few rounds and speaking to him to alert him to play the dealer finally gave up and would muck his cards if his eyes were closed. Took only a few times for him to realize it was to leave the table.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Dale....yeah, I don't have a problem mucking the guy's cards if he's dozing off. I would think tho that before the dealer dealt him in as a blind, he'd wake him up and see if he wanted to post the blind and get a hand.
Delete