Tuesday, May 17, 2016

How Much Do You Bet With a Set of Aces?

Saturday I went to Player’s Casino in Ventura to toss some cards and chips around.  Otherwise known as playing poker.

The goal was to get out of the house, have some fun, and see if I could manage to come up with a winning session, something that has been all too rare of late.

When I got there, the list for the 2/3 game was quite long, but within minutes of adding my name to it, they called a new game, and I was last person on it to get in.

The game was a little chaotic and wild to start out.  As often happens with a new table at PC, a number of the players in this game were really waiting for a seat at a bigger game—either the PLO game or the 3/5 NL game.  So they were a little more aggro than the average regular 2/3 player.  The first couple of pots played out huge and there had been no limping. Three-betting preflop had been the rule, so when I looked down at Ace-King in early position before the first orbit had been completed, I momentarily considered limping, waiting for someone else to raise.  But no, I did indeed raise, and waited to see how much the three-bet would be.

But my raise to $12 was only called—by two players—not raised.  The flop was ugly. Queen-Jack-Jack.  Well, I did have a gutshot to Broadway.  I held my breath and put out $25.  Only one player called.  The turn was a deuce, no help.  I checked, giving up on the hand.  I was a bit surprised that the other guy checked behind.  My play smelled of exactly what it was—c-bet. a missed flop and then giving up when he called.  This player was one of the ones waiting for the 3/5 game, too.  The river was a 3.  I thought about it and decided to bet it.  The guy’s check on the turn showed bigger weakness, in my eyes, than my turn check had.  And I had a hard time believing the 3 helped him.  I figured what the hell and counted out $35 and bet it.  He folded quite quickly.  Cool.

Not long after I had Ace-Queen and opened to $13 (meant to put out $12 and grabbed an extra dollar chip by mistake).  Again, two callers.  This time the flop was a little more boring, just Jack high.  I tried a $25 c-bet and won my second pot of the day.

After about 20 minutes, they opened a new 3/5 game and all hell broke loose.  Three players from our table left to join the bigger game and everybody at my table left decided to change seats.  For about five minutes, it was like a Chinese fire drill as everyone claimed new seats, and a couple of players who came in new played a hand or two and then moved to another game as well.  Luckily, the list for our game was long and they didn’t have any trouble filling up our table.

I was happy to see the guy on my immediate left take off.  For one thing, he straddled my big blind every time. Also, he was annoying.  He liked to discuss the hands afterward—recreate them—in great detail.  All while the next hand was going on.  I was trying to follow the current hand and he was talking about who raised on the turn on the previous hand.  I really don’t like playing next to a guy who thinks he’s Norman Chad.

One of the seats was taken by a middle-aged woman.  Perhaps middle-aged is a tad generous.  She sure didn’t look like a poker player.  But if we thought she was going to be some timid nit, we were in for a rude awakening.  She played pretty crazy.  Her first few raises (of many) were huge--$25, $20.  Eventually she made smaller raises, and limped a decent amount of the time.  But folding preflop was not anything she liked to do except on rare occasions.  A lot of times she took pots with aggressive play, but when we were able to see her hand we some odd cards.  Her stack fluctuated quite a bit. 

One time when she had fallen below $100, she open shoved.  The fellow on her left had commented to a few of us on her play when she was away from the table earlier.  None of us could really figure her out.  Anyway, that guy raised to $200.  That got everyone to fold, which was his plan.  He showed his hand—pocket Jacks.  She showed her hand—Queen-3 offsuit (she wasn’t a lot below $100 so it was a totally horrific play on her part).  Of course, she caught a Queen on the turn and took the pot.

This lady was responsible for one of the more unusual things I’d seen in a poker room.  By the time this happened, she had gotten to the point where she was limping a bit more frequently than she was raising.  There was one limper and then she put out three yellow chips (in this casino, as in the Bike, the $5 chips are yellow, the $1 chips are blue).  She went oops and somehow indicated that she hadn’t meant to do that.  The dealer said, “You meant to just call?”  She said she grabbed the yellow chips by mistake, she thought they were the blue ones.  The dealer said, to everyone, “Is it ok with everyone if she takes it back and just calls?”  I didn’t think that was allowed, at least not as it occurred there. Has anyone ever seen a player raise and then be allowed to take it back?  Or allow a vote of the players to decide if a bet is a bet?  But no one objected and she limped instead. Someone else raised, the hand went to showdown and on the river, she went all-in.  The only player left was the same guy on her left.  He tanked and folded and said, “Well, you’ve got to show your hand….we gave you that break.”  But she acted like she didn’t hear him and sent the cards back to the dealer face down.  The guy, a friendly, jocular fellow, said, “OK, next time, we’re not giving you any breaks.”

Meanwhile, I had fallen into my recent pattern of being incredibly card dead.  I barely played another hand for a long time.  I realized at one point that I hadn’t seen a single pocket pair the entire time I was there.  Not a big pair, not a little pair, and nothing in between.  Nada.  I had maybe seen one medium suited connector and Ace-Queen once or twice that didn’t go anywhere.  I actually looked at my watch to see how long I’d been there.  It was about an hour and 45 minutes.  Seems like a long time to go without a pair.

Just a few minutes after I had done that calculation, I looked down and saw a pocket pair, finally.  And wouldn’t you know, it was a couple of Aces.  Worth waiting for—I hoped.  A couple of people limped in front of me so I made it $18.   Only one player called—the guy I mentioned who was on the lady’s left.  He had been one of the limpers.  The flop was totally innocuous and he checked.  I started to grab some chips and before I could count them, he folded.  But then he turned over his cards—two Jacks.  “I assume these are no good?”  I was a bit surprised, why had he originally limped in with Jacks?  Note: This hand occurred before the hand when he had raised the lady’s all-in to $200 with Jacks.  Still this guy had been reasonable aggressive, and had put in more than his share of preflop raises.  I couldn’t believe Jacks weren’t in his preflop raising range.

So I actually said to him, “Surprised you didn’t raise with those.”  He misunderstood what I meant and said, “No….I wasn’t going to re-pop you with Jacks.”  I got that—it was the first time I’d raised in at least an hour.  I said, “No I mean you limped in with pocket Jacks, I wouldn’t have expected that.”  He just shrugged, said, “Yeah, I limped.”  Ok, I can’t blame him for not giving away his strategy, I wouldn’t have either.

That didn’t exactly open of the floodgates for me, card-wise.  I did get Ace-King again, and won a two way pot with a raise and a c-bet.

Then I just checked with King-Queen offsuit in the big blind. I bet $5 on a King-high flop and got a caller.  I bet $15 on a blank turn and got a call.  The river put a third heart out there and I checked.  Instead of checking behind me, the other player just mucked his cards.  Strange.  That annoyed the same guy who had limped with Jacks earlier.  He said, “Why didn’t you check, I wanted to see his hand?” He meant my hand.  Somehow, this guy had gotten particularly interested in how I was playing.

In the big blind I had 7-3 of hearts and there was no raise.  It was just three of us.  The flop was Queen-5-4, one heart (the 5). I checked and the next guy bet $10.  The other guy folded and I decided to see one more card, so I called.  I was kind of hoping for the 6 of hearts but I wasn’t too sorry to see the 6 of spades instead.  From his play all day, I expected this guy to bet, so I checked.  He didn’t disappoint and put out $20.  Of course I knew that 8-7 beat me, but I dismissed the possibility.  I couldn’t see him playing that the way he did.  I was pretty sure he had a Queen and not really a strong one.  I thought about betting smaller, but decided my check-raise would be to $60.  He took some time to call, but did.

The turn was a 9, no flush possible, and still 8-7 was the nuts.  I went over it in my mind again, and still was convinced he didn’t have the nuts.  I put out $100, which I suppose was too much (but the pot was around $140).  He tanked for a long, long time.  He took a stack of $100, put it close to the betting line, but not over.  And finally, he folded.

Before I relinquished my hand, the guy who had limped with Jacks spoke up.  “I’ll give you seven bucks if you show me anything other than 7-8.”  I laughed.  Now by this time, I was almost ready to call it a day.  So I figured what the hell and flipped my cards over.  The guy said, “Well….almost the same thing.”  But sure enough, the tossed me seven $1 chips.  I laughed. But I actually didn’t feel right about taking them….even though he had committed to it and I had taken him up on it.  After all, “verbal is binding.”  Still, it felt wrong.  I said, “I can’t take this.” and tried to give them back to him.  He said, “Well, here, at least I’ll post your small blind for you.”  So he put two of them back for my small blind.

My initial $300 stack had grown past $350 despite being so card dead.  And I decided that this was going to be my last or second to last orbit.  And I still hadn’t gotten a second pocket pair yet.

I got nothing until, in early position I got my second pocket pair of the day.  Two black Aces.  Well, I guess if you’re going to only get pockets twice in a session, that’s the pair to get, right?

I opened the pot to $15.  And promptly got three callers, including the guy so fascinated with my play.  He was the big blind.  I didn’t really want to play my Aces against three other players, surely someone would hit something.

Well, someone did.  Me. The flop was Ace-6-3, two diamonds.  The big blind checked and I had to decide how to play it.


Here’s where I’d like your input.  I’m certainly not checking there, not with the diamonds out there. For that matter, any of the players in the hand could have called my raise with 5-4, especially if it was suited.  If it was two or three-handed, I would probably go with a 2/3’s or 3/4’s pot size bet.

But three others in the hand gave me pause.  I wasn’t about to do anything crazy like shove to make sure no flush draw called me.  I’ve seen my opponents do that many, many times.  But I sure as hell didn’t want to make it easy for anyone to call, or for more than one player to call.  I tanked for a bit and decided that, if I was going to lose with a set of Aces, I was damn sure going to give them bad odds to hit it.  I went with $60—a pot sized bet.  Well, I guess a little bit more than pot-sized, when you take out the rake.

The first guy mucked instantly.  But the next guy went into the tank.  He was a youngish Asian guy, but he had not played anything like the kind of “Crazian” you see in Vegas.  He was actually a pretty tight player.   After a few minutes, when it really looked like he was going to call….he mucked.  My buddy, the big blind, folded immediately.

Now I was just a hand or two from leaving, so again, out of character for me, I showed my hand.  That got a few oohs and ahhs.  The Asian didn’t say what he had but said he assumed I had Ace-King, Ace-Queen and thought that he could maybe steal the pot on the turn if the right card came up.

But I ask you, what was the right bet to make there? I have to say, if anyone who had cards had a decent flush draw, I don’t think my $60 bet would have gotten them to fold. I just wanted them to be wrong for hitting it.  Let me know what the right bet was.

And a few hands later I racked up and cashed out.  It was a pretty fun table and I won some money.  My $110 profit wasn’t a lot, but it was a welcome change from the way I’ve been running lately, and I was glad to leave with more money than I came in with.

34 comments:

  1. Your set of aces - what did you want to happen? You said you were "damn sure going to give them bad odds to hit." You bet, they all folded, and now you're asking if your bet was right. So, what did you want to happen?

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    1. Coach, I dunno how to answer that any better than I feel I did in the post. I wasn't unhappy to take the pot down, that was certainly a good result. Getting called and getting outdrawn was not a pleasant thought. But if I really wanted to (almost) guarantee that didn't happen, I would have bet bigger--I would have shoved, even--and I didn't do that.

      Having played enough 1/2, 1/3, 2/3 poker over the past few years, I know a large percentage of people are going to call there with a draw whether they had good odds or not. I just didn't want to end up thinking I played it wrong if they did that.

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  2. I'd have bet 25-30. You WANT people to call or even raise with hands that are nearly drawing dead. Even if a flush card comes on the turn you can still boat up. Money not won is same as money lost.

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    1. Thanks, Anony....but I think that's too little. Maybe I bet too much, I was certainly wondering if I did. But that would have been giving someone good odds to chase the draw, then if they had hit, it would have been my fault.

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  3. You want them to call or fold? Your pot size bet means, I got monster so call me with drawing thin hands cuz I dont want to get out drawn. You dont expect your monster to get paid off decent amount by pretty worst hands. As you saod, you dont want to get out drawn so your bet accomplish the mission. Congrats...

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    1. Thanks. OF course I didn't want to get drawn out on...who does? But maybe I didn't make it clear. My thought was make sure if you get beat its by a BAD call. I sure don't want to give anyone the right price to chase.

      If I bet $20 there, anyone with a draw is making the right play calling. If it had been heads up a 2/3 or 3/4 pot bet would work. I just was wondering how much I should take into account the fact that it was four-ways into my bet sizing. Is the answer, "not at all"?

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  4. Anything more than $40 is just throwing away value IMO. What's the worst thing that can happen? They all call? In which case they all have flush draws and have each other's outs or you're against hands that are drawing almost dead.

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    1. Thanks Kat. I get what your saying. I also think that any of the players in the hand would have called the $60 with a good draw just as easily as they would have called $40.

      But of course, I'll never know for sure.

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    2. Certainly possible. It's just such a hard board to get called on my preference is to give them some incentive. At full pot you are blasting out weak suited aces and medium pairs that might have taken one off. And if any good draw is calling no matter what, you don't mind at all if you get three callers. In fact you prefer it.

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    3. Always appreciate your insight. I'm getting some great feedback on this, so glad I posted it.

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  5. Rob

    I think the question you should ask yourself is what you would bet there with AK, KK, QQ, AQ? If it is $30 or $25 then you should bet the same when you flip huge. If you bet your monsters big and your other hands small you become exploitable and you miss out on value.

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    1. Thanks, Paul and good point...of course in this case I knew I was only going to be playing a few more hands with this group.

      But I also think this bet could easily look like I'm weaker than I am and am trying to bully my way to the pot.

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  6. Many of your posts describe missing flops but still making a C-Bet of 60-70% of pot. If this is consistently true, why would you vary your bet sizing (I can understand being at low stakes much of the time this may not matter that much, but in this scenario you are aware the guy in the hand with you has been taking note of your play). If the goal of betting is to get worse hands to call and/or better hands to fold it seems this large of a bet only gets hands with decent equity to call. I just think the large bet narrows your range too much. Sure you may get called by good draws for $60, but would $35-$40 get calls from mid-pocket pairs, gutshots, a case Ax hand? Anyway, long way to go to say I agree with Kat.

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    1. Thanks, Anony, great thots, only thing I can say is that I had raised so little this session not sure anyone could make any conclusions....also, if I had missed, I usually don't just c-bet with nothing against TZHREE other players (especially in early position). Not that that scenario had played out this time because, as I said, I had been so in-active this session.

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  7. I don't have a problem with betting $60, but I think slightly less than pot is in order... $40-50. I don't know if you're "throwing money away" like Kat says, but I do think that all flush draws are calling $60 as quick as they're calling $40. The issue is are you trapping top pair / mid pair hands that are calling to try to hit their 2 pair / trips hands? Less than pot allows those kinds of players to come along with their drawing dead hands.

    Finally, I echo the sentiments above: would you be questioning your bet sizing if you got a call? I think you rarely go wrong by betting on the larger side unless you're value towning yourself...

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    1. Thanks, PM, I'm not really questioning my bet based on the result. I just wanted to get feedback on the thought process I used--or should have used--to make the bet. As I said, in that scenario, I'm usually not facing three opponents, usually its one or two, and I wanted to know how much if at all the sheer number of players should be taken into account.

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    2. I think accounting for the sheer number of players is based on your percent of pot, regardless the flop. In other words, if you have a $15 raise and 3 callers ($60), 2/3 pot is $40 instead of $30 when 2 callers are seeing a flop. I'd argue that percentage bet sizes shouldn't change, only net value of the bet sizing should change given player action.

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    3. Thanks, that's what I wasn't quite sure of...you rarely flop a really big hand in a multi-way pot. I was thinking...if one player calls, they'd all have odds to call. Of course, as pointed out by Kat, if they're all calling with flush draws that's a good thing.

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  8. Why didn't you take the $7? He offered, you showed. Nothing wrong with that. Last week I had aguy's number and he offered me $5 to show. Told him I would show for $20. Needless to say, he declined.

    Oh and where were the dreaded pocket Kings? lol

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    1. Yeah...I dunno why, in the moment, it just felt weird to take money from another player. It was a spur of the moment thing, I suppose if I had thought about it, I would have kept the money. But he was a good guy and we were having fun so...But you know, I did take the two bucks for the small blind.

      Yeah....no dreaded hand, totally lacking in pocket pairs, good or bad, other than the rockets twice.

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  9. Read Ed Miller's The Course. Fear of getting outdrawn is one of those things that will limit your ability to grow as a poker player. And what you want is for people to call with inferior hands. It's hold 'em, man. Not PLO

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    1. Wow, thanks for commenting AC....I was under the impression you didn't read my blog, and would only come back when I started posting the kind of kinky porn videos that you're in to.

      I have read Miller's book. Again, I wasn't trying to get folds per se. Just make sure any calls were bad ones. If I had just wanted folds I would have just made it $100 or shoved. I can't tell you how many times I've seen that in Vegas (and in LA), player makes a huge overbet, gets folds, shows his hand and says, "I had to bet out the draws." That wasn't me. Maybe I bet too much, that's why I posted it, but it my motivation was to maybe get bad calls, not good calls.

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    2. But also, thanks for the reference, I started re-reading Miller's chapter on Streets of Value this morning and will study it further before my next session. Good stuff

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  10. While it's disappointing to smash the flop and get no action, I wouldn't sweat it, it's very hard for anyone to have anything there.

    The way more interesting spot in your session and worth thinking about it is having a guy fold an overpair (JJ) to 1 bet in a single-raised pot without even seeing how much you c-bet. Unless he is a super weak-tight nit which didn't seem to be the case based on your description, I would immediately be wondering if I am giving off any tells (bet-sizing, physical, etc) or if I am playing too tight.

    We have a cooler situation (overpair vs overpair) and didn't get any value post-flop. In my opinion, that's way more disappointing than flopping the nuts and getting folds on a board where it's hard to get action.

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    1. Thanks, Anony...that actually was the strangest hand of the day. Like I said, no way do I figure this guy to limp with Jacks. He was reasonably aggressive. The only thing I could think of was that the lady who played so weird was the big blind. Perhaps he was counting on her raising from there so he could come over the top? Then I messed up his plan by raising.

      As I mentioned, I had just noted how long it had been since I had a pocket pair, but in reality, after those first couple of hands--neither of which I had to show of course (and one was a river bluff)--I had been basically non-existent at the table for a long time. So his profiling me based on that plus my appearance--(my age)--he may have figured I only raised with pairs bigger than his Jacks. But he basically played it like a small pair he was set mining with from the get-go.

      I will definitely think about whether I'm giving off any tells. I've seen this guy before, and I will remember to try to mix things up a bit next time we're at the same table, maybe I can fool him for a nice pot or two.

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    2. Rob:

      Great post (much better than more parking complaints - Ha!). I agree with Anon. Not just in this post, but in many of your posts, you talk about being card dead and folding/folding/folding. You rarely (never, that I can recall) talk about making a position play without premium starting hands.

      Having that guy easily laying down Jacks is a clue that you could have had that same result with any two cards. It frequently seems as if it doesn't occur to you to try to "make a play" rather than just waiting for good cards.

      I'm not advocating you suddenly becoming LAG, as that's not your style. But I do think you can put yourself in spots where you have established a very solid table image, read the table enough to know who can/can't fold, and can rep huge hands with any two cards. You can make those same plays (open betting, c-betting, two barreling) with any two cards, in the right spots. That would really take your game up a level, IMO. I also think it would keep you involved and focused on the table play in ways that simply waiting for big cards doesn't.

      s.i.

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    3. Ironic that we're discussing this with Rob... my post that is scheduled for Friday talks about this exact situation; a weak/tight image. It's a sheer coincidence; I had that image during my last session...

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    4. @S.I. thanks. But sorry to tell you, my next post, which I'll post soon, will be another parking rant.

      Heh heh...just kidding. I think I'm done with parking for the time being.

      Great insight. The truth is, tho it might not sound like it, I do look for spots like that. I was thinking about during this game, but most of the pots were multi-way, and in particular that lady I mentioned was such a wild card that it made it tough whenever she was in a hand, which was most of the time. In fact, I might have actually considered limping with the Aces if the lady had been in the hand, but she was away from the table when I got them.

      But I appreciate the reminder and yes, I know I don't try hard enough to find them. Gotta work on this.

      @PM--looking forward to it.

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    5. This Rob is not the player who was chasing (and often hitting) with very few outs earlier in his playing days... :)

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    6. I was? Maybe I've read too many poker books.

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  11. Rob, taking AC's comments a bit further, from a different Ed Miller book, a question and a suggestion. The question is: What are the effective stacks? You only mentioned yours.

    The suggestion is, you're looking to get it all-in in that situation, so you want to look at how you should chunk your remaining stack vs. the chunks available in the other stacks in the hand. Do you think you have a better chance of getting called if you divide your stack up into progressive chunks that puts you all-in on the river? Are the stacks and players such that a check-raise on the flop would get stacks in there? Would a check-call and a lead on the turn get stacks in there? Are the players in the hand even likely to bet if they get checked to? Heck, would an overbet look suspicious and get a naked ace or a draw to shove over you?

    That all said, I rarely slowplay flopped sets. I'll usually bet out--precicely because it's the mindset of many lower limit players to slowplay monsters, and so they will less likely expect a monster when played like that. For your stack size, a $50-60 flop chunk seems about right to get you all-in by the river, so I'd support that. Yes, the results suck, but the quality of the decision isn't affected by the result.

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    1. Thanks...great feed back. Two of the stacks were similar or bigger than mine...the guy who tanked had about $150-$175.

      The action was mixed at the table. If that lady had been in the hand, I might have actually thought more about checking and seeing if she would bet....she probably would have. But she folded preflop so there was no one I could count on to bet. The guy who folded his Jacks to me was last in from the blind, but he had already checked, and I didn't think he'd mess with me at all--but he might have called with the flush draw.

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